Řecký oheň

Diskuze o věcech více či méně historických. "Porazí rytíř samuraje?" "Přesekne katana ocel?", ale i "Církevní úpadek".

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Faskal
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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 16. 8. 2017, 08:57

Tak nějak. Mě přijde, že Řecký oheň je v praxi to samé, jako alternativy odvozené od různých zpracovaných pryskyřic, ze kterých se oddělovala těkavější složka (takže třeba terpentýn). Jenomže zatímco získávat dostatek smůly, neřkuli derivátů ze smůly, je peklo, kdejaký paša může mít ve sklepě ohromné zásoby "benzínu" nebo aspoň hrubé ropy. Zábavný fakt z "bambusové technologie": nejstarší známá zmínka o těžebných věžích na ropu jsou z Číny z roku 347 našeho letopočtu.

Tolik k té hořlavé náplni, všeobecně oblíbené po celém světě.
Pokud jde o plamenomety, byly objeveny (použity) několikrát, nikdy jejich používání ale nevydrželo.
Že to Byzantinci lili z hradeb mi přijde přirozené. Mě opravdu efektivita jejich primitivního plamenometu moc nepřesvědčila a oni ho zjevně také používali jenom tam, kde nešlo jinak (to moře). Logistiku podle mě měli zvládnutou.

V čem měli zjevně problém, a je to univerzálně podporované napříč zdroji, bylo, že Řecký oheň šel na moři použít jenom za naprostého bezvětří, zřejmě to souviselo ze způsobem zapalování a/nebo pumpování. Číňané udělali tu vychytávku se střelným prachem a díky tomu byl jejich plamenomet univerzálnější. Také se jim stalo, že si kvůli tomu spálili vlastní flotilu, protože to používali nepříznivém počasí a vítr se obrátil proti nim.

Jinak Řecký oheň se běžně používal i ve formě granátu.

Ano, předběhli svou dobu. Měli si k němu vymyslet ta letadla nebo dělostřelectvo a udělat z toho pořádný napalm.
V této podobě to bylo použitelné jenom za velmi specifických podmínek, které zahrnovaly mimo jiné to, že s tím nepřítel nesměl mít zkušenosti, protože ten dostřel byl pořád relativně malý.

...
When Richard I of England was sailing from Cyprus to Acre in + 1191, he
captured a Saracen transport ship laden with all kinds of armaments, including
an abundance of Greek Fire petrol in bottles, which a witness had seen put
aboard at Beirut.i Later the historian 'Abd al-Latif al-BaghdadI described a
great parade held in Baghdad in + 1228 on the occasion of the reception of a
Mongolian ambassador; there were 'soldiers with glass flasks of nafl, who filled
the whole plain with fire') The naffiitiin troops certainly had now something else
in their armoury than ordinary unprocessed mineral oil, and thence the line ran
straight and quick not only to the Liber Ignium (p. 39 above) but also to the book
ofI:Iasan al-Ramma}:l (p. 41 above), towards the end of the + 13th century.
Citace z knihy o Číně. Tady máme expozici okolních civilzací Arabské variaci na Řecký oheň. Na východ to teda lezlo ještě dřív v podobě darů, tady tím jenom baví nějakého Mongola.
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Eleshar_Vermillion » 17. 8. 2017, 10:46

Faskal píše:
14. 8. 2017, 12:12
Proč to roku 1204 nepoužili, nevím; nejsem historik a o téhle bitvě mám velmi mlhavé představy. Třeba k tomu měli nějaké důvody. Faktem je, že roku 1453 už zase Řecký oheň z hradeb spokojeně lili. Koukni do citace nahoře.

Edit2:
Podle všeho tam byl zrovna totální bordel a naprostá dezorganizace. Tak asi proto.
Ano, jak jsem psal, je naprosto evidentní paradoxní rozdíl mezi obří Byzancí 1204, teoreticky jakémsi vrcholu proti pár primitivům ze Západu (měsíc obléhání), a Konstantinopolí 1453 proti mnohonásobně větší, nejvyspělejší armádě tehdejšího světa (dost komplikovaná záležitost, která těm Turkům málem nevyšla). V tom roce 1204 se to prostě muselo totálně sesrat a zřejmě byli rádi, že vůbec nějaké obléhání bylo.
\\[T]// PRAISE THE SUN! \\[T]//

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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 18. 8. 2017, 14:22

Jop, nehledal jsem tady (zatím) přímé zdroje, ale naprosto souhlasím s tím že to vypadalo tak, že byli rádi, že se vůbec na nějaký odpor při obléhání vzmohli.
Nicméně zdroje dokládají, že roku 1204 Oheň použili a nezapomněli ho ani do roku 1453, kdy byl použit opět.

...

Nějaká další písmenka.
We hear of the use of the fire on a grand scale in A. D. 941, when a
great fleet of Rus ships advanced under their leader Igor from Kiev across
the Black Sea. A vivid account has been left by Liutprand, Bishop of Cremona,
who visited Constantinople in 949, and whose step-father had been
diplomat there before him in 942. In Book V of Liutprand's Antapodosis,
following the important passage where he states that the Rus were Northmen
from Russia, he describes the anxiety of the Emperor Romanus I
when their fleet was approaching the city:
První masivní použití Ohně bylo roku 941 našeho letopočtu. Rusáci pod vedením Igora napadli Byzanc. Vypráví návštěvník Konstantinopole.

Tolik uvozující text od Davidsona, už jsem ho citoval. Následně uvádí text primárního zdroje.
He spent some sleepless nights in reflection while Igor devastated the coast lands, and
at last he was informed that there were fifteen old battered galleys in the yards which had
been allowed to go out of commission. Thereupon he called . . . the ship carpenters into
his presence and said to them: 'Make haste and get the old galleys ready for service
without delay. Moreover put the fire-throwers not only in the bows but at the stern and
both sides as well.' When the galleys had been equipped according to his instructions, he
collected his most skilful sailors and bade them give King Igor battle. So they set out;
and when King Igor saw them on the open sea he ordered his men to capture them alive
and not kill them. But the merciful and compassionate Lord willed not only to protect
his worshippers who pray to him and beg his aid, but also to give them the honour of
victory. Therefore he lulled the winds and calmed the waves; for otherwise the Greeks
would have had difficulty in hurling their fire. As they lay, surrounded by the enemy, the
Greeks began to fling their fire all around; and the Rus, seeing the flames, threw themselves
in haste from their ships, preferring to be drowned in the water rather than burned
alive in the fire. Some sank to the bottom under the weight of their cuirasses and helmets
which they were never to see again; some caught fire as they swam among the billows ;
not a man that day escaped save those who managed to reach the shore. For the Rus
ships by reason of their small size can move in very shallow water where the Greek galleys
because of their greater draught cannot pass.
Tohle je jeden ze zdrojů, který zdůrazňuje naprostou nezbytnost klidného moře pro použití plamenometů.
Plamenomety byly typicky na přídi, daly se zjevně namontovat kamkoli, přijde mi, že Romanus I. byl připraven lodě obětovat, nakonec to nebylo potřeba.

Tady máme záznam i z druhé strany z podobné doby, což je hezké. Následuje Davidsonův úvod
A corroborative account is given in the Russian Primary Chronicle in
the entry for the years 935-417 Here the damage done by the invaders
along the shores of the Black Sea is described: the killing of the inhabitants,
the burning of monasteries and the taking of booty. An attack by
Greek troops on the Rus on land was indecisive, and the enemy took to
their ships; thereupon:
Následuje text z Ruské kroniky:
Theophanes pursued them in boats with Greek Fire, and dropped it through pipes
upon the Russian ships, so that a strange miracle was offered to view. Upon seeing the
flames, the Rus cast themselves into the sea-water, being anxious to escape, but the survivors
returned home. When they came once more to their native land, where each recounted
to his kinsfolk the course of events and described the fire launched from the
ships, they related that the Greeks had in their possession the lightning from heaven, and
had set them on fire by pouring it forth, so that the Rus could not conquer them.
Tady tolik informací není, máme tady ale popis trubic, ze kterých Oheň prskali.
In the early twelfth century Anna Comnena described the same method of
using Greek Fire as a sea weapon in the A lexiad, her lively and detailed biography
of her father, the Emperor Alexios I (1081-1118). Alexios took
some trouble to increase its efficiency as a naval weapon, but the principle
appears to be the same as that 200 years earlier. The emperor himself
visited the ship-yards to instruct the ship-builders, and to increase the
moral effect of Greek Fire on barbarians, he had animal heads fixed on
the tubes which discharged it:
O dvěsta let později se mnoho nezměnilo, přidali jenom zvířecí hlavice na konce plamenometů:
. . . a head of a lion or other land animal made in brass or iron with the mouth open and
gilded over so that their mere aspect was terrifying. And the fire which was to be directed
against the enemy through tubes he mades to pass through the mouths of the beasts, so
that it seemed as if the lions . . . were vomiting the fire.
Typicky to byl lev.

Internet je úžasná věc. Citace nahoře je "Anna Comnena, The Alexiad (translated by E. A. S. Dawes, London 1928) XI,
p. 292-3.". Když jsem to ověřoval (jo, je to tam), udělal jsem rychlé ctrl+F a v knize XIII je následující:
https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/basis/A ... xiad13.asp
Kniha byla psaná kolem roku 1148.

Barbaři se pokusili dotáhnout beranidlo ke hradbám. Obránci se jim vysmáli, otevřeli brány se slovy, že takovou díru by to jejich beranidlo stejně nedokázalo udělat, vyrazili ven a zahnali je. Následně beranidlo spálili tím, že na něj z hradeb lili oheň.
... None the less, fire was thrown down from above on to this engine which [329] now stood idle and immovable for the aforesaid reasons, and converted it into ashes.
Je to popis obrany byzantinské kolonie jménem Dyrrachium.

... Barbaři se následně pokusili podkopat, obléhaní našli místo, kam se podkopali, prokopali se k nim... A tohle je nádherný kus textu:
Then they opened up a little hole opposite and when they saw the quantity of workers by means of this peep-hole, they burnt their faces to ashes with fire.
Facemelter!
:s_easy:
Now this fire is prepared from the following ingredients. The readily combustible rosin is collected from the pine and other similar evergreen trees and mixed with sulphur. Then it is introduced into reed-pipes and blown by the man using it with a strong continuous breath and at the other end fire is applied to it and it bursts into flame and falls like a streak of lightning on the faces of the men opposite. This fire the men of Dyrrachium used directly they were face to face with the enemy, and burnt their beards and faces. And the enemy could be seen, like a swarm of bees which has been smoked out, rushing oat in disorder from the place they had entered in good order.
OK, ale tohle vůbec nesedí na ostatní zdroje. Dovolím si vznést hypotézu, že dcera císaře má zakázáno vynášet detaily vojenského tajemství, i když píše biografii o svém tatínkovi.

Barbaři postavili monstrózní obléhací věž. Vypadalo to, že je moc vysoká a špatně hořlavá na to, aby si s ní dokázali poradit Ohněm, a hořel vždycky jehom vršek, ale barbaři byli níž. Aby byli schopni chrstnout napalm až nahoru, postavili si na své straně vlastní věž, nahoru natahali Oheň a chrlili ho na nepřátele odtamtud. Samotný oheň nestačil. Text se mi nechce luštit detailně, ale pomáhali si veškerými hořlavinami ve městě, aby to byli schopní zapálit.
Next Alexius' soldiers carried up the liquid fire to the top story of the open structure with intent to shoot it against the wooden tower opposite. But this idea and its execution did not seem sufficient for the complete destruction of the machine. For the fire when directed against it would only catch the extreme top of the tower. So what did they devise? they filled the space between the wooden tower and the city-tower with all kinds of inflammable material and poured streams of oil upon it. To this they applied fire, namely torches and fire-brands, which smouldered for a short time, then flared up a little and finally burst into tall flames. As the fiery streaks of the liquid fire also contributed their share, that whole terrific construction all made of wood cauglit fire, and made an immense noise and was a terrible sight for the eyes. And that enormous fire was seen for thirteen stades round. The tumult and the confusion of the barbarians inside was tremendous and hopeless, for some were caught by the fire and burnt to ashes, and others threw themselves to the ground from the top. And there was also much shouting and wild confusion among the barbarians outside who re-echoed their cries.
On his way Cantacuzenus came to a small fortress, called Mylus' fort, and immediately set up siege-engines and besieged it. And the Romans approached the walls unconcernedly, some threw fire on the gates and burnt them down, while others climbed up the wall and reached the battlements.
Používání ohně bylo součástí obléhací taktiky byzantinců, ale tehdy byli tak macho, že nečekali, až hradby shoří a slézali je ještě i svépomocí (na jiných místech, pochopitelně). Mimochodem, tady se píše, že je na hradby "vrhali" a nebylo to součástí připravených (konvenčních) obléhacích strojů, které zjevně používali také a nepoužívali tedy Oheň jako ultimátní, univerzální zbraň.


Kniha IV:
At the same time many also spoke to him of Palaeologus' untiring industry. For Palaeologus had now planned to set fire to Robert's huge wooden tower, and had collected naphtha and pitch and faggots of dry wood and catapults on the walls, and was awaiting the enemy's attack.
Tady je, mrška. Já věděl, že se k té ropě přiznají. Zase tady ale chybí síra a není zmiňované, z čeho ten dehet mají (to budou nějak zpracované borovice, co máme kousek nahoru). Mimochodem, tady máme zmínku o katapultu (ty jsou cool), ne o plamenometu (ty jsou over-rated).

Kniha XIV.
Tady máme Araby používající hořlaviny jako granáty. Autorka to považuje za mazaný trik.
For the interval spent by Balduinus in idleness was most diligently used by them as a time of recovery. They devised the following cunning trick. To all seeming they had an eye to making terms of peace and sent embassies to Balduinus about it; but in reality while the terms of peace were under discussion, they were preparing their defence, and while they kept him buoyed up with hope they were forming machinations against him. For having noticed his great slackness in the war, and also that the soldiers outside the walls had lost heart, one night they filled a number of clay [366] jars full of liquid pitch, and hurled them down on to the engines standing round the city. As the jars were necessarily broken to pieces in their fall, the liquid was poured all over the woodwork, and on to that they threw lighted torches. Then they brought other jars containing a great deal of naphtha which caught the fire and made the flames shoot up into the air and converted the Franks' engines into ashes. And the light of the breaking day mingled with the light from the towering blaze of the wooden sheds.
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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Faskal
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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 9. 9. 2017, 19:48

Jak jsem psal, že vrhat po nepřátelích hořící viskózní šmejd je prastarý a populární nápad, tak tady je César. Jedná se o zcela náhodně nalezený doklad, co mě jednoho dne praštil do oka. Jsme někde 58–49 př.n.l.

Kniha VII Césarových zápisků o válce Galské. Tady César obléhá nějaké Galy, oni se snaží o kontra-reakci. A do toho mají přijít posily Galů odjinud. Nebudu spoilovat, jak to dopadlo 8)
Dávám tady delší citát, je to mimochodem asi nejzajímavější bitva z celé knihy, na konci je hezky vidět, jak to s těmi firebaty mysleli fakt vážně.

Člověk také zamáčkne slzu, když čte, jak vymakané důlní systémy tam měli. Kam se na to hrabe povrchová těžba raného středověku.
XXII.—To the extraordinary valour of our soldiers, devices of every sort were opposed by the Gauls; since they are a nation of consummate ingenuity, and most skilful in imitating and making those things which are imparted by any one; for they turned aside the hooks with nooses, and when they had caught hold of them firmly, drew them on by means of engines, and undermined the mound the more skilfully on this account, because there are in their territories extensive iron mines, and consequently every description of mining operations is known and practised by them. They had furnished, moreover, the whole wall on every side with turrets, and had covered them with skins. Besides, in their frequent sallies by day and night, they attempted either to set fire to the mound, or attack our soldiers when engaged in the works; and, moreover, by splicing the upright timbers of their own towers, they equalled the height of ours, as fast as the mound had daily raised them, and countermined our mines, and impeded the working of them by stakes bent and sharpened at the ends, and boiling pitch, and stones of very great weight, and prevented them from approaching the walls.

XXIII.—But this is usually the form of all the Gallic walls. Straight beams, connected lengthwise and two feet distant from each other at equal intervals, are placed together on the ground; these are mortised on the inside, and covered with plenty of earth. But the intervals which we have mentioned, are closed up in front by large stones. These being thus laid and cemented together, another row is added above, in such a manner that the same interval may be observed, and that the beams may not touch one another, but equal spaces intervening, each row of beams is kept firmly in its place by a row of stones. In this manner the whole wall is consolidated, until the regular height of the wall be completed. This work, with respect to appearance and variety, is not unsightly, owing to the alternate rows of beams and stones, which preserve their order in right lines; and, besides, it possesses great advantages as regards utility and the defence of cities; for the stone protects it from fire, and the wood from the battering ram, since it [the wood] being mortised in the inside with rows of beams, generally forty feet each in length, can neither be broken through nor torn asunder.

XXIV.—The siege having been impeded by so many disadvantages, the soldiers, although they were retarded during the whole time, by the mud, cold, and constant showers, yet by their incessant labour overcame all these obstacles, and in twenty-five days raised a mound three hundred and thirty feet broad and eighty feet high. When it almost touched the enemy's walls, and Caesar, according to his usual custom, kept watch at the work, and encouraged the soldiers not to discontinue the work for a moment: a little before the third watch they discovered that the mound was sinking, since the enemy had set it on fire by a mine; and at the same time a shout was raised along the entire wall, and a sally was made from two gates on each side of the turrets. Some at a distance were casting torches and dry wood from the wall on the mound, others were pouring on it pitch, and other materials, by which the flame might be excited, so that a plan could hardly be formed, as to where they should first run to the defence, or to what part aid should be brought. However, as two legions always kept guard before the camp by Caesar's orders, and several of them were at stated times at the work, measures were promptly taken, that some should oppose the sallying party, others draw back the towers and make a cut in the rampart; and moreover, that the whole army should hasten from the camp to extinguish the flames.

XXV.—When the battle was going on in every direction, the rest of the night being now spent, and fresh hopes of victory always arose before the enemy: the more so on this account because they saw the coverings of our towers burnt away, and perceived that we, being exposed, could not easily go to give assistance, and they themselves were always relieving the weary with fresh men, and considered that all the safety of Gaul rested on this crisis; there happened in my own view a circumstance which, having appeared to be worthy of record, we thought it ought not to be omitted. A certain Gaul before the gate of the town, who was casting into the fire opposite the turret balls of tallow and fire which were passed along to him, was pierced with a dart on the right side and fell dead. One of those next him stepped over him as he lay, and discharged the same office: when the second man was slain in the same manner by a wound from a cross-bow, a third succeeded him, and a fourth succeeded the third: nor was this post left vacant by the besieged, until, the fire of the mound having been extinguished, and the enemy repulsed in every direction, an end was put to the fighting.
Kniha II občanské války. Tohle jsem teda nečetl; pravděpodobně je to neautentické a napsané v 2. století našeho letopočtu. Ale to je taky dávno. Zde máme, jak obránci shazují zapálené barely plné pryskyřice a dehtu. To barbarsky elegantní. Když člověk ale čte ty římany na opačné straně, to byla technika, panečku.
X.—When they were confident that they could protect the works which lay around from this turret, they resolved to build a musculus, sixty feet long, of timber, two feet square, and to extend it from the brick tower to the enemy's tower and wall. This was the form of it: two beams of equal length were laid on the ground, at the distance of four feet from each other; and in them were fastened small pillars, five feet high, which were joined together by braces, with a gentle slope, on which the timber which they must place to support the roof of the musculus should be laid: upon this were laid beams, two feet square, bound with iron plates and nails. To the upper covering of the musculus and the upper beams, they fastened laths, four fingers square, to support the tiles which were to cover the musculus. The roof being thus sloped and laid over in rows in the same manner as the joists were laid on the braces, the musculus was covered with tiles and mortar, to secure it against fire, which might be thrown from the wall. Over the tiles hides are spread, to prevent the water let in on them by spouts from dissolving the cement of the bricks. Again, the hides were covered over with mattresses, that they might not be destroyed by fire or stones. The soldiers under the protection of the vineae, finish this whole work to the very tower, and suddenly, before the enemy were aware of it, moved it forward by naval machinery, by putting rollers under it, close up to the enemy's turret, so that it even touched the building.

XI.—The townsmen, affrighted at this unexpected stroke, bring forward with levers the largest stones they can procure; and pitching them from the wall, roll them down on the musculus. The strength of the timber withstood the shock; and whatever fell on it slid off, on account of the sloping roof. When they perceived this, they altered their plan and set fire to barrels, filled with resin and tar, and rolled them down from the wall on the musculus. As soon as they fell on it, they slid off again, and were removed from its side by long poles and forks. In the meantime, the soldiers, under cover of the musculus, were looting out with crowbars the lowest stones of the enemy's turret, with which the foundation was laid. The musculus was defended by darts, thrown from engines by our men from the brick tower, and the enemy were beaten off from the wall and turrets; nor was a fair opportunity of defending the walls given them. At length several stones being picked away from the foundation of that turret next the musculus, part of it fell down suddenly, and the rest, as if following it, leaned forward.
A ještě třetí kniha občanské války:
CI.—Much about the same time, Cassius arrived in Sicily with a fleet of Syrians, Phoenicians, and Cilicians: and as Caesar's fleet was divided into two parts, Publius Sulpicius the praetor commanding one division at Vibo near the straits, Pomponius the other at Messana, Cassius got into Messana with his fleet before Pomponius had notice of his arrival, and having found him in disorder, without guards or discipline, and the wind being high and favourable, he filled several transports with fir, pitch, and tow, and other combustibles, and sent them against Pomponius's fleet, and set fire to all his ships, thirty-five in number, twenty of which were armed with beaks: and this action struck such terror, that though there was a legion in garrison at Messana, the town with difficulty held out, and had not the news of Caesar's victory been brought at that instant by the horse stationed along the coast, it was generally imagined that it would have been lost, but the town was maintained till the news arrived very opportunely; and Cassius set sail from thence to attack Sulpicius's fleet at Vibo, and our ships being moored to the land, to strike the same terror, he acted in the same manner as before. The wind being favourable, he sent into the port about forty ships provided with combustibles, and the flame catching on both sides, five ships were burnt to ashes. And when the fire began to spread wider by the violence of the wind, the soldiers of the veteran legions, who had been left to guard the fleet, being considered as invalids, could not endure the disgrace, but of themselves went on board the ships and weighed anchor, and having attacked Cassius's fleet, captured two five-banked galleys, in one of which was Cassius himself; but he made his escape by taking to a boat. Two three-banked galleys were taken besides. Intelligence was shortly after received of the action in Thessaly, so well authenticated, that the Pompeians themselves gave credit to it; for they had hitherto believed it a fiction of Caesar's lieutenants and friends. Upon which intelligence Cassius departed with his fleet from that coast.
Popravdě se mi nechce luštit, kdo koho rubal, ale je zajímavé, že tady máme ty zápalné lodě, proti kterým kdysi dávno (i když ne tak dávno, jako tohle) prohráli Byzantinci (viz jeden z mých předchozích postů).
Technika opět primitivní, naložíte loď vším, co dobře hoří a pošlete proti nepřátelům.
Tady máme jedli(?) (nebo spíš něco z ní, jako populárnější borovice je dobrý zdroj smůly a dehtu), smůlu a koudel (odpadová rostlinná vlákna)

Všechno k přečtení tady:
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10657/pg10657.html

Máme tady tedy primitivní techniku založenou na hořlavinách rostlinného původu. Je tam nicméně také zmínka o loji, tedy o tuku živočišného původu. Ten je v některých modernějších recepisech taky zmiňován.
Hořící smůla je prostě klasika.
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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Faskal
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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 15. 12. 2017, 00:01

Vy jste tady šikovní a máte jistě lepší přístup ke knihám o historii než já, molekulární biolog. Potřeboval bych tuhle knihu, nebo aspoň její stranu 100:

Runciman, Steven (1965). The Fall of Constantinople, 1453 (Canto ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521398329.

Respektive zjistit, jaký je primární zdroj tohohle:
wiki píše:Meanwhile, despite some probing attacks, the Ottoman fleet under Suleiman Baltoghlu could not enter the Golden Horn due to the chain the Byzantines had previously stretched across the entrance. Although one of the fleet's main tasks was to prevent any ships from outside from entering the Golden Horn, on 20 April a small flotilla of four Christian ships managed to slip in after some heavy fighting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_C ... ople#Siege

Dík
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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midewiwin
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Registrován: 18. 12. 2006, 09:56

Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od midewiwin » 15. 12. 2017, 09:08

Čas neexistuje.

jjelen
Příspěvky: 1578
Registrován: 27. 7. 2010, 15:23

Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od jjelen » 15. 12. 2017, 10:02

V knihovně maj tuším minimálně český překlad (městská k. v Praze?), ale originál...

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Faskal
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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 15. 12. 2017, 10:37

Nakonec jsem to našel na google books, mají tam stránku 100, 102 a 103, což je nezbytné minimum. Je tam dokonce poznámka pravděpodobně vedoucí na původní zdroj, poznámky tam ale nejsou zobrazené. Meh. Třeba to podle toho nějak najdu 8)
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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York
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Registrován: 24. 2. 2012, 17:31

Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od York » 15. 12. 2017, 11:17

jjelen píše:
15. 12. 2017, 10:02
V knihovně maj tuším minimálně český překlad (městská k. v Praze?), ale originál...
Jo, Městká knihovna to (v češtině). Moravská zemská to má dokonce zdigitalizované, ale není to veřejně dostupné, vyšlo to nedávno.

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Faskal
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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 15. 12. 2017, 13:44

Tak jsem to nakonec našel 8)
je to tady: https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli ... l_djvu.txt

Akorát se bojím, že trochu kecá, a s tím Řeckým ohněm při pádu Konstantinopole to nebude zas tak žhavé.

Edit:
spoiler warning, vypadá to (pokud nebudeme počítat spojence), že Byzantinští měli v době obléhání právě jednu funkční loď.

Edit2:
wtf, tam byl takový bordel, že museli pro obilí poslat Císařovu osobní loď.

Edit3:
No dobře, musím uznat, že některé zdroje tvrdí, že těch lodí měli deset.
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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Faskal
Příspěvky: 7841
Registrován: 20. 11. 2006, 20:59
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Re: Řecký oheň

Příspěvek od Faskal » 22. 1. 2018, 20:37

Mňo, asi by mělo padnout, že první část mého spisu o řeckém ohni vyšla v Drakkaru č. 65 8)
Jsou tam dobové doklady o použití a podobě řeckého ohně.
... ano, chtěl jsem zničit svět. Ale ne takhle.
Staré zápisy z her, aktuálně: Tannhäuserova brána - Claudius II.

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